Comments on: “The Stories of Gay Christians” and The Implications for the Church http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church I write within the tension of spirituality and culture, politics and theology, existing and emerging forms of church, the Kingdom of God and Empire America, modern and postmodern thought, & the gritty drama that is my pilgrim story. Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:13:56 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: The Stories of Gay Christians « A Forward Design http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-64172 The Stories of Gay Christians « A Forward Design Fri, 07 Aug 2009 22:10:50 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-64172 [...] 7, 2009 In the News Leave a Comment Tags: andrew marin, gay, homosexuality I found this article concerning a play that tells the stories of various gay Christians, and how they handled their sexuality.  I thought [...] [...] 7, 2009 In the News Leave a Comment Tags: andrew marin, gay, homosexuality I found this article concerning a play that tells the stories of various gay Christians, and how they handled their sexuality.  I thought [...]

]]> By: novus·lumen | living in the tension of an emerging faith in Jesus and postmodern America » Blog Archive » “Religion and Homophobia: Spiritual Violence in our Community” A Grand Rapids Area Event http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-59949 novus·lumen | living in the tension of an emerging faith in Jesus and postmodern America » Blog Archive » “Religion and Homophobia: Spiritual Violence in our Community” A Grand Rapids Area Event Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:54:43 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-59949 [...] written here before on this issue. I’m also on the board of directors for a local LGBT/Church [...] [...] written here before on this issue. I’m also on the board of directors for a local LGBT/Church [...]

]]> By: The Gay Christian Conversation « Third Watch http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-18851 The Gay Christian Conversation « Third Watch Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:22:56 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-18851 [...] over at Novus Lumen wrote a post some time ago reflecting on gay Christians in West Michigan (Click here). Here is a [...] [...] over at Novus Lumen wrote a post some time ago reflecting on gay Christians in West Michigan (Click here). Here is a [...]

]]> By: novus•lumen | living in the tension of an emerging faith in Jesus and postmodern America » Blog Archive » Got Inclusion? http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-18155 novus•lumen | living in the tension of an emerging faith in Jesus and postmodern America » Blog Archive » Got Inclusion? Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:09:55 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-18155 [...] written about this issue a few other times and the only reason I bring it up again is because I was so struck by the beauty of the [...] [...] written about this issue a few other times and the only reason I bring it up again is because I was so struck by the beauty of the [...]

]]> By: Barry http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-17612 Barry Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:29:30 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-17612 Hey Chris: Your thoughts about "connect.with people, feel.......struggle.....shoulder......loving how Jesus loved" is the meat of the matter! Christians, in my opinion, can be some of the most critical, and judgmental species on two feet. I hope you find someone, if you haven't already, who will give you what you are so willing to give to others. In their book, The Conscious Life, the authors Dr. Louis Cox and Fran Cox unpack the difference between Grownup and Adult. I just began this read and it is poignant and discerning. One of their principles is, "You are over there and I am over here, and it is OK." Although they are not Believers, much can be assimilated from them. You have a great friend in Jeremy Bouma...stay close to him! Barry Hey Chris:

Your thoughts about “connect.with people, feel…….struggle…..shoulder……loving how Jesus loved” is the meat of the matter! Christians, in my opinion, can be some of the most critical, and judgmental species on two feet. I hope you find someone, if you haven’t already, who will give you what you are so willing to give to others.

In their book, The Conscious Life, the authors Dr. Louis Cox and Fran Cox unpack the difference between Grownup and Adult. I just began this read and it is poignant and discerning. One of their principles is, “You are over there and I am over here, and it is OK.”

Although they are not Believers, much can be assimilated from them.

You have a great friend in Jeremy Bouma…stay close to him!

Barry

]]> By: Chris http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-17197 Chris Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:44:30 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-17197 Joey, I also wanted to thank you for the response. You give me much to think about. I never want to be so narrow that I cannot understand others; I only want to be narrow enough to keep my brains from falling out (not sure I know what that balance looks like yet). The ex-gay community changed my life in great ways. It sounds as though your experience was very different, and if I'm wrong about that, there are many others who had negative experiences. This is a difficult reality for me sometimes, because I have always thought that if the gospel isn't true for these men, then it can't be for me either. I don't know what to do with that quandary. For now I just want to make sure I am loving people how Jesus would, which is something Jeremy challenges me with. I was the man you warned me about reducing others to, and I certainly do not want to think in a box; rather, I want to understand. I want to connect with people and feel their struggle and shoulder it with them as much as I am called to do so. ~Chris Joey, I also wanted to thank you for the response. You give me much to think about. I never want to be so narrow that I cannot understand others; I only want to be narrow enough to keep my brains from falling out (not sure I know what that balance looks like yet).

The ex-gay community changed my life in great ways. It sounds as though your experience was very different, and if I’m wrong about that, there are many others who had negative experiences. This is a difficult reality for me sometimes, because I have always thought that if the gospel isn’t true for these men, then it can’t be for me either.

I don’t know what to do with that quandary. For now I just want to make sure I am loving people how Jesus would, which is something Jeremy challenges me with. I was the man you warned me about reducing others to, and I certainly do not want to think in a box; rather, I want to understand. I want to connect with people and feel their struggle and shoulder it with them as much as I am called to do so.

~Chris

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-17168 Jeremy Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:35:58 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-17168 Hey Joey! Thanks for dropping by n•l :) I think your point about how gays are stereotyped by (conservative) Christians is an important one. And if you're not a Christian (meaning you yourself have stepped out of that camp or never joined!), then I'm sorry for how you and your friends have been burned by the Church. And if you are, then I grieve with you over the preconceived notions and barriers within the Church that "do nothing to foster a healing relationship between gay people and the Christian community" and further divide our "family." Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and I hope you stick around to share more! -jeremy Hey Joey!

Thanks for dropping by n•l :) I think your point about how gays are stereotyped by (conservative) Christians is an important one. And if you’re not a Christian (meaning you yourself have stepped out of that camp or never joined!), then I’m sorry for how you and your friends have been burned by the Church. And if you are, then I grieve with you over the preconceived notions and barriers within the Church that “do nothing to foster a healing relationship between gay people and the Christian community” and further divide our “family.”

Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts and I hope you stick around to share more!
-jeremy

]]> By: Joey http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-17147 Joey Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:14:56 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-17147 I really appreciated the article that Jeremy wrote but I wanted to quickly point something out about Chris's reply: "I want the man who believes he is so different from other men (so much less masculine) to experience a satisfying wholeness with regards to his manliness. I want him to know that he has a right and freedom to make a different choice and to “explore” a different way of life (heterosexuality) without hurting himself or others. I want the hurting man to be affirmed in his insecurities and to be free from the jealousy of the male figure. I want this man to know that he is good enough to be loved by a woman and to be a father and have a family. Most gay men want those things—they desperately (and secretly) long for them." This particular part sounds like it's straight out of Exodus International's lecture series, and I easily recognize this vein of thought being a gay Christian who struggled for many years in the ex-gay movement. I don't want to argue here. But I want to sincerely ask you to move outside of this "box" and stop reducing all of us to insecure men who don't feel masculine and fear intimacy with women. We are well aware of our freedom and choices and we openly desire and appreciate families as most people do. All these preconceived notions about who we are, what we look like and how we tick does nothing to foster a healing relationship between gay people and the Christian community. I really appreciated the article that Jeremy wrote but I wanted to quickly point something out about Chris’s reply:

“I want the man who believes he is so different from other men (so much less masculine) to experience a satisfying wholeness with regards to his manliness. I want him to know that he has a right and freedom to make a different choice and to “explore” a different way of life (heterosexuality) without hurting himself or others. I want the hurting man to be affirmed in his insecurities and to be free from the jealousy of the male figure. I want this man to know that he is good enough to be loved by a woman and to be a father and have a family. Most gay men want those things—they desperately (and secretly) long for them.”

This particular part sounds like it’s straight out of Exodus International’s lecture series, and I easily recognize this vein of thought being a gay Christian who struggled for many years in the ex-gay movement. I don’t want to argue here. But I want to sincerely ask you to move outside of this “box” and stop reducing all of us to insecure men who don’t feel masculine and fear intimacy with women. We are well aware of our freedom and choices and we openly desire and appreciate families as most people do. All these preconceived notions about who we are, what we look like and how we tick does nothing to foster a healing relationship between gay people and the Christian community.

]]> By: Pomo http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-17027 Pomo Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:50:44 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-17027 mmmm. Good post. mmmm. Good post.

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-16916 Jeremy Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:11:34 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-stories-of-gay-christians-and-the-implications-for-the-church#comment-16916 Yes, Chris, dialogue must happen...and it isnt. I think it's funny that you wrote even proposing the question "What if the Church has it wrong?" would cause people to think of themselves or the Church as "weak Christians." For Jews, this wouldnt even be an issue, because you were a "weak Jew" for NOT asking questions! That's why throughout the gospels Jesus (I think) only directly answers people 3 times. The rest he posses questions in order to make a point but also spur conversation. Yes wrestling is taxing and draining and scary, but whats the alternative? Siting in ignorance and un-truth? Believing the un-real? Or even worse...forcing others to BE or SUPRESS un-real? For me the alternative is scarier... And I think that's what some of us are wrestling with regarding this issue: what is real and what does it mean for people to live out what is real about who they are, how they've been created, and MUCH more importantly: what is real about God and His reality. So lets converse and wrestle as a Community of Jesus, and let's love each other and the world in the midst of that wrestling... -jeremy Yes, Chris, dialogue must happen…and it isnt. I think it’s funny that you wrote even proposing the question “What if the Church has it wrong?” would cause people to think of themselves or the Church as “weak Christians.” For Jews, this wouldnt even be an issue, because you were a “weak Jew” for NOT asking questions! That’s why throughout the gospels Jesus (I think) only directly answers people 3 times. The rest he posses questions in order to make a point but also spur conversation.

Yes wrestling is taxing and draining and scary, but whats the alternative? Siting in ignorance and un-truth? Believing the un-real? Or even worse…forcing others to BE or SUPRESS un-real?

For me the alternative is scarier…

And I think that’s what some of us are wrestling with regarding this issue: what is real and what does it mean for people to live out what is real about who they are, how they’ve been created, and MUCH more importantly:

what is real about God and His reality.

So lets converse and wrestle as a Community of Jesus, and let’s love each other and the world in the midst of that wrestling…

-jeremy

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