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	<title>Comments on: Pagitt and Pelagius: An Examination of an Emerging Neo-Pelagianism—Discipleship and Judgment 5</title>
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	<link>http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-discipleship-and-judgment-5</link>
	<description>I write within the tension of spirituality and culture, politics and theology, existing and emerging forms of church, the Kingdom of God and Empire America, modern and postmodern thought, &#38; the gritty drama that is my pilgrim story.</description>
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		<title>By: jeremy bouma</title>
		<link>http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-discipleship-and-judgment-5/comment-page-1#comment-76671</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy bouma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 13:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hey Doug! 
 
WOAH this was a MAJOR typo mistake! I meant to write LEAD, not LEADER and must have just gotten ahead of myself with my fingers! What I meant was that I wish you would follow his LEAD in viewing sin and judgment strongly. But obviously what I typed conveyed something very different, for which you are right to be utterly frustrated! I would be, too. 
 
As I have maintained throughout this series, I do believe that your theology mirrors Pelagius in significant ways. I also believe you differ from him, too. I am really not trying simply TIE you to Pelagius unwarrantedly to serve some sort of agenda, but I can understand how you would feel that way in light of the way this point 3 sounded. 
 
You said in an email before this started that I represented your views fairly, which made me happy because I absolutely do not want to twist your views and pigeon-hole them into an agenda. Do you feel differently now? While you also said you are not a Pelagian, you have not said why. If your views do line-up in (from my perspective) clearly discernible ways, I do not understand why you are not Pelagian in your theology. Perhaps you could help me understand where I am wrong in my understanding of your views and also Pelagius&#039;. I am certainly open to that. 
 
Anyway, again I am really sorry for the mistake. I&#039;ve corrected it in the post and updated it above. In my original research I did not set out to prove you were a Pelagian. Instead I wanted to see if you did in light of the charges. From what I have read it seems to be the case, though I am open to understanding why and where I am wrong... 
 
shlm, 
-jeremy </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Doug! </p>
<p>WOAH this was a MAJOR typo mistake! I meant to write LEAD, not LEADER and must have just gotten ahead of myself with my fingers! What I meant was that I wish you would follow his LEAD in viewing sin and judgment strongly. But obviously what I typed conveyed something very different, for which you are right to be utterly frustrated! I would be, too. </p>
<p>As I have maintained throughout this series, I do believe that your theology mirrors Pelagius in significant ways. I also believe you differ from him, too. I am really not trying simply TIE you to Pelagius unwarrantedly to serve some sort of agenda, but I can understand how you would feel that way in light of the way this point 3 sounded. </p>
<p>You said in an email before this started that I represented your views fairly, which made me happy because I absolutely do not want to twist your views and pigeon-hole them into an agenda. Do you feel differently now? While you also said you are not a Pelagian, you have not said why. If your views do line-up in (from my perspective) clearly discernible ways, I do not understand why you are not Pelagian in your theology. Perhaps you could help me understand where I am wrong in my understanding of your views and also Pelagius&#039;. I am certainly open to that. </p>
<p>Anyway, again I am really sorry for the mistake. I&#039;ve corrected it in the post and updated it above. In my original research I did not set out to prove you were a Pelagian. Instead I wanted to see if you did in light of the charges. From what I have read it seems to be the case, though I am open to understanding why and where I am wrong&#8230; </p>
<p>shlm,<br />
-jeremy</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Pagitt</title>
		<link>http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-discipleship-and-judgment-5/comment-page-1#comment-76598</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Pagitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 02:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;2) Pelagius had a very strong view of sinning after baptism,3) Unfortunately, Pagitt doesn&#8217;t follow his leader in this regard, because he has a low view of sin.&quot; 
 
Jeremy, come on now, my &quot;leader&quot;?  Let me say it again, I am not a Pelagian. I am starting to think that you are unwilling to believe me. I know you have disregarded the direct statements others have made as well, and now it falls on me. You disregard for the word of a friend is disturbing.  
He is not my leader. I have spent no time with the teachings and thinking of Pelagius.  You might find similarities (as you will in what I write with many who have gone before me), but to assume that I am learning from or following him is too much. 
 
A Question for Jeremy: When will you listen and not accuse on this account? You have made conclusions that are inaccurate and misinformed. They come from your obsession and not mine. You are making &quot;Glenn Beck&quot; like connections that are meant to serve your purpose with no regard for what I am saying.  When will my direct answers fit into your theories? 
 
On Jesus an judgment, I am pretty sure that this kind of accusation is just what he was talking about. The seperation of the truth seekers from the rumor spreaders.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&quot;2) Pelagius had a very strong view of sinning after baptism,3) Unfortunately, Pagitt doesn&rsquo;t follow his leader in this regard, because he has a low view of sin.&quot; </p>
<p>Jeremy, come on now, my &quot;leader&quot;?  Let me say it again, I am not a Pelagian. I am starting to think that you are unwilling to believe me. I know you have disregarded the direct statements others have made as well, and now it falls on me. You disregard for the word of a friend is disturbing.<br />
He is not my leader. I have spent no time with the teachings and thinking of Pelagius.  You might find similarities (as you will in what I write with many who have gone before me), but to assume that I am learning from or following him is too much. </p>
<p>A Question for Jeremy: When will you listen and not accuse on this account? You have made conclusions that are inaccurate and misinformed. They come from your obsession and not mine. You are making &quot;Glenn Beck&quot; like connections that are meant to serve your purpose with no regard for what I am saying.  When will my direct answers fit into your theories? </p>
<p>On Jesus an judgment, I am pretty sure that this kind of accusation is just what he was talking about. The seperation of the truth seekers from the rumor spreaders.</p>
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		<title>By: Corey</title>
		<link>http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-discipleship-and-judgment-5/comment-page-1#comment-76404</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 23:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism%e2%80%94discipleship-and-judgment-5#comment-76404</guid>
		<description>Style criticism:  
 
This series has been becoming snarkier with every post. This, despite being presented as a serious academic/theological examination. It sort of sounds like a theological version of Scooby Doo when they are revealing the killer. I mean every post pigeonholes a portion of Paggit&#039;s work into a nasty label (&quot;Pelagian,&quot;  &quot;Universalist,&quot; &quot;Liberal&quot;), then there are a bunch of &quot;gotcha&quot; Bible verse at the end that show why all the labels are evil.  
 
This doesn&#039;t seem like a helpful or serious dialogue.  
 
For example, just because Paggit does not explicitly damn every non-Christian to Hell, does not make him a &quot;Universalist.&quot; Using that rhetorical mode is excellent for castigation purposes, but not very informative for understanding the subject matter.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Style criticism:  </p>
<p>This series has been becoming snarkier with every post. This, despite being presented as a serious academic/theological examination. It sort of sounds like a theological version of Scooby Doo when they are revealing the killer. I mean every post pigeonholes a portion of Paggit&#039;s work into a nasty label (&quot;Pelagian,&quot;  &quot;Universalist,&quot; &quot;Liberal&quot;), then there are a bunch of &quot;gotcha&quot; Bible verse at the end that show why all the labels are evil.  </p>
<p>This doesn&#039;t seem like a helpful or serious dialogue.  </p>
<p>For example, just because Paggit does not explicitly damn every non-Christian to Hell, does not make him a &quot;Universalist.&quot; Using that rhetorical mode is excellent for castigation purposes, but not very informative for understanding the subject matter.</p>
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