Comments on: Pagitt and Pelagius: An Examination of an Emerging Neo-Pelagianism—Introduction 1 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1 I write within the tension of spirituality and culture, politics and theology, existing and emerging forms of church, the Kingdom of God and Empire America, modern and postmodern thought, & the gritty drama that is my pilgrim story. Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:04:47 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Kieran http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-75188 Kieran Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:26:17 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-75188 Infant Baptism does seem a big issue from a strong-Original Sin perspective... I admit I am less read on how protestant churches who don't do it handle the tension, I've heard frequent evangelical talk of a period of infant innocence, though not worked out in a theologically advanced manner. It seems to me that if one follows a strict Augustinian view of OS, NOT Baptizing young children presents a SEVERE theological, as well as pastoral question. But I respect if its not something you are dealing with this specific study. Infant Baptism does seem a big issue from a strong-Original Sin perspective… I admit I am less read on how protestant churches who don't do it handle the tension, I've heard frequent evangelical talk of a period of infant innocence, though not worked out in a theologically advanced manner. It seems to me that if one follows a strict Augustinian view of OS, NOT Baptizing young children presents a SEVERE theological, as well as pastoral question.

But I respect if its not something you are dealing with this specific study.

]]> By: Jeff Straka http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74965 Jeff Straka Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:29:23 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74965 I think you are viewing the "emerging church" as working towards forming another "denomination". If that were the case, there WOULD be a need to nail down a solid list of "what we believe". If that were the case, there would be a need to have "councils" to come up with a "creed". If these two things were going on, there WOULD be a lot of loud bickering, arguing and criticism. I see the books, the blogs, the cohorts, the conferences as ways to dialog aloud about things that perplex and disturb us each personally about religion and Christianity, and what might be alternative ways to think about or experience them. I don't know ANYONE in this conversation that arrogantly assumes they hold all the "right" answers and have the "right theology". They all seem to be sincerely open to listening and learning from each other. Will something eventually "emerge" from this conversation that might become a new "denomination"? Who knows! But I certainly don't get the impression that any in the conversation assume it will be for a LONG time - perhaps a generation or two down the road. Phyllis Tickle explained that in these 500-year rummage sales, the first 100 years is spent sorting this stuff out before some kind of conformity and general agreement takes place. So it seems to me we are in the "funk years" that went on before Luther finally did his post, where many people kind of felt in their gut that something was not quite right about the church and indulgences, but thought they were alone in those thoughts. And then conversations started to happen in the pubs (sound familiar?) - the "blogs" of their time. We haven't left the pub yet. I think you are viewing the "emerging church" as working towards forming another "denomination". If that were the case, there WOULD be a need to nail down a solid list of "what we believe". If that were the case, there would be a need to have "councils" to come up with a "creed". If these two things were going on, there WOULD be a lot of loud bickering, arguing and criticism.

I see the books, the blogs, the cohorts, the conferences as ways to dialog aloud about things that perplex and disturb us each personally about religion and Christianity, and what might be alternative ways to think about or experience them. I don't know ANYONE in this conversation that arrogantly assumes they hold all the "right" answers and have the "right theology". They all seem to be sincerely open to listening and learning from each other.

Will something eventually "emerge" from this conversation that might become a new "denomination"? Who knows! But I certainly don't get the impression that any in the conversation assume it will be for a LONG time – perhaps a generation or two down the road. Phyllis Tickle explained that in these 500-year rummage sales, the first 100 years is spent sorting this stuff out before some kind of conformity and general agreement takes place. So it seems to me we are in the "funk years" that went on before Luther finally did his post, where many people kind of felt in their gut that something was not quite right about the church and indulgences, but thought they were alone in those thoughts. And then conversations started to happen in the pubs (sound familiar?) – the "blogs" of their time. We haven't left the pub yet.

]]> By: Dana Ames http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74866 Dana Ames Fri, 12 Feb 2010 23:42:14 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74866 Jeremy, You are correct about Pelagius in the East. However, what the Eastern church considers "original sin" is not really the same thing as in Augustine. It's not weaker, it's different. Please see above link. I would say that it's actually more comprehensive than what Augustine put forth. I don't care if you don't agree with the Eastern view; I am concerned that you present it correctly. Thanks. Dana Jeremy,
You are correct about Pelagius in the East. However, what the Eastern church considers "original sin" is not really the same thing as in Augustine. It's not weaker, it's different. Please see above link. I would say that it's actually more comprehensive than what Augustine put forth.

I don't care if you don't agree with the Eastern view; I am concerned that you present it correctly. Thanks.

Dana

]]> By: Patrick Oden http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74816 Patrick Oden Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:31:51 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74816 Jeremy, an intriguing beginning. Even if I don't agree with every characterization, I think your tone here, and in the post/comments of your intro suggest more of a critical engagement in an academic style, which I think opens the door for good consideration and conversation. I think there is a lot of push for the emerging theology to go more of a leftwards direction, so having a little bit of critical pressure from the orthodox side is worthwhile however this lands. One thing that came to mind in reading this is the topic of a Jewish understanding of original sin. Do you think that the Jewish understanding would be relevant as a background to what the earliest Christians would have understood? Alignment with Augustine isn't, after all, equivalent with alignment with Christ. Can a person be non-Augustinian and fully orthodox? I'm also curious about how you see the Eastern Orthodox position on him. He's not a heretic as such. More on the practical side, given that Original Sin and infant baptism go hand in hand (so that a baby who dies in sin won't go to hell), I'm curious if infant baptism fits into your ecclesial practice. I don't think emerging churches have ever pursued this, so is the shift you're seeing more an inherent part of a distinct church tradition or something that has changed? Hope you don't mind my poking a little. I appreciated your helpful replies in the last thread and am interested as you develop this. Jeremy, an intriguing beginning. Even if I don't agree with every characterization, I think your tone here, and in the post/comments of your intro suggest more of a critical engagement in an academic style, which I think opens the door for good consideration and conversation. I think there is a lot of push for the emerging theology to go more of a leftwards direction, so having a little bit of critical pressure from the orthodox side is worthwhile however this lands.

One thing that came to mind in reading this is the topic of a Jewish understanding of original sin. Do you think that the Jewish understanding would be relevant as a background to what the earliest Christians would have understood? Alignment with Augustine isn't, after all, equivalent with alignment with Christ. Can a person be non-Augustinian and fully orthodox?

I'm also curious about how you see the Eastern Orthodox position on him. He's not a heretic as such.

More on the practical side, given that Original Sin and infant baptism go hand in hand (so that a baby who dies in sin won't go to hell), I'm curious if infant baptism fits into your ecclesial practice. I don't think emerging churches have ever pursued this, so is the shift you're seeing more an inherent part of a distinct church tradition or something that has changed?

Hope you don't mind my poking a little. I appreciated your helpful replies in the last thread and am interested as you develop this.

]]> By: jeremy bouma http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74854 jeremy bouma Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:07:35 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74854 Drew, You will see that I take Pelagius own words as translated by B. R. Rees, including: “To Demetrias;” “On Divine Law;" “On the Christian Life;” “To an Old Friend" and “On Bad Teachers.” I also use Pelagius’ little known and read Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. No I did not run to Augustine's writings and pull quotes. I am neither addressing the differing view between EO and W re OS and atonement, nor am I talking about RC understanding of justification and sanctification. As I already said: I am plopping Pagitt's and Pelagius' writings side-by-side, providing comments and questions along the way. People can make their own judgments between 1) Does Doug mirror Pelagius; and 2) If so, why is that bad historical, systematic, and biblical theology. I assure you I am NOT a Calvinist. Ask my wife: She went to Calvin College and me being a non-Calvin was a partial issue for her parents :0 I hope I do not have "a specific view of Pelagius" that I am hoisting on Doug. I think I do pretty good job of presenting Pagitt's and Pelagius' teachings, writings, and theology fairly. Doug said so at least for his side; Pelagius is dead, so I just don't know... Re: strawmen...the point of this little adventure is does Doug's theology mirror Pelagius? That's the argument. And if so, is that bad or good? If so, how does that theology relate to the Holy Scriptures and Tradition, a Tradition born out of a communal rejection of Pelagius' theology at minimum. Hopefully I am faithful to that adventure, but we shall see... -jeremy Drew,

You will see that I take Pelagius own words as translated by B. R. Rees, including: “To Demetrias;” “On Divine Law;" “On the Christian Life;” “To an Old Friend" and “On Bad Teachers.” I also use Pelagius’ little known and read Commentary on St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. No I did not run to Augustine's writings and pull quotes.

I am neither addressing the differing view between EO and W re OS and atonement, nor am I talking about RC understanding of justification and sanctification. As I already said: I am plopping Pagitt's and Pelagius' writings side-by-side, providing comments and questions along the way. People can make their own judgments between 1) Does Doug mirror Pelagius; and 2) If so, why is that bad historical, systematic, and biblical theology.

I assure you I am NOT a Calvinist. Ask my wife: She went to Calvin College and me being a non-Calvin was a partial issue for her parents :0 I hope I do not have "a specific view of Pelagius" that I am hoisting on Doug. I think I do pretty good job of presenting Pagitt's and Pelagius' teachings, writings, and theology fairly. Doug said so at least for his side; Pelagius is dead, so I just don't know…

Re: strawmen…the point of this little adventure is does Doug's theology mirror Pelagius? That's the argument. And if so, is that bad or good? If so, how does that theology relate to the Holy Scriptures and Tradition, a Tradition born out of a communal rejection of Pelagius' theology at minimum.

Hopefully I am faithful to that adventure, but we shall see…
-jeremy

]]> By: jeremy bouma http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74852 jeremy bouma Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:55:48 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74852 Glad you're finding value in this conversation and I wish it had happened sooner myself. I agree that there isn't uniformity in EC theology, but there is no denying that the EC is producing this theology. It may not be the ONLY theology, but leaders within Emergent are still producing it... -jeremy Glad you're finding value in this conversation and I wish it had happened sooner myself. I agree that there isn't uniformity in EC theology, but there is no denying that the EC is producing this theology. It may not be the ONLY theology, but leaders within Emergent are still producing it…

-jeremy

]]> By: jeremy bouma http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74851 jeremy bouma Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:48:12 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74851 "It's clear to me that Jeremy should probably say that he's not taking "the Theology" of the Emerging Church to task, but is taking the theology of Doug Pagitt and Jones to task." Perhaps this is a better way to put it. I realize the emerging church is bigger than those at the top, as I have said countless times before, but it is still by and large wrapped around these peeps. What does fascinate me is if other leaders within the conversation disagree with these folks, why there has not been really any critical interaction with the theology of these leaders. It's quite puzzling, really... -jeremy "It's clear to me that Jeremy should probably say that he's not taking "the Theology" of the Emerging Church to task, but is taking the theology of Doug Pagitt and Jones to task."

Perhaps this is a better way to put it. I realize the emerging church is bigger than those at the top, as I have said countless times before, but it is still by and large wrapped around these peeps. What does fascinate me is if other leaders within the conversation disagree with these folks, why there has not been really any critical interaction with the theology of these leaders.

It's quite puzzling, really…
-jeremy

]]> By: jeremy bouma http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74849 jeremy bouma Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:43:12 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74849 Glad you're being stretched Kimber! As to your question, I think I will hold off answering and let the arguments develop over the next few weeks. I am merely presenting Doug's thoughts and Pelagius' thoughts on human nature, sin, salvation, discipleship, and judgment side-by-side. I then offer come comments, analysis, and questions at the end to hopefully drive discussion and dialogue. Should be fun :) -jeremy Glad you're being stretched Kimber!

As to your question, I think I will hold off answering and let the arguments develop over the next few weeks. I am merely presenting Doug's thoughts and Pelagius' thoughts on human nature, sin, salvation, discipleship, and judgment side-by-side. I then offer come comments, analysis, and questions at the end to hopefully drive discussion and dialogue. Should be fun :)

-jeremy

]]> By: jeremy bouma http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74848 jeremy bouma Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:40:35 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74848 No prob, Pat. Sorry if I came across as overly hyped up...I'm trying to be less defensive while also clarifying :) Thanks for being part of the discussion!! -jeremy No prob, Pat. Sorry if I came across as overly hyped up…I'm trying to be less defensive while also clarifying :)

Thanks for being part of the discussion!!
-jeremy

]]> By: jeremy bouma http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1/comment-page-1#comment-74847 jeremy bouma Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:39:47 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/pagitt-and-pelagius-an-examination-of-an-emerging-neo-pelagianism-1#comment-74847 Thanks Jonathan...appreciate the encouragement! Hopefully I can be above board with this... -jeremy Thanks Jonathan…appreciate the encouragement! Hopefully I can be above board with this…
-jeremy

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