Comments on: Offending Your Base–A Response http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response I write within the tension of spirituality and culture, politics and theology, existing and emerging forms of church, the Kingdom of God and Empire America, modern and postmodern thought, & the gritty drama that is my pilgrim story. Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:52:19 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: daryl underwood http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-39981 daryl underwood Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:06:04 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-39981 While Jesus was not offensive by design, nonetheless, many of His words were confrontational to those who held power or way over those who 'were powerless' the disadvantaged that often were taken advantage of by 'retainers' and 'elite'. He spoke frankly to them in a way that could be considered offensive. In Matthew 21:33-46 scripture says they 'perceived' He was speaking about them and it is pretty clear they were upset by His words. I think the title of your book is provocative and might entice someone to reconsider some of the things the church might gleefully overemphasize in respect to 'offense' but 'ride loose in the saddle' so that your message can be given a hearing. While Jesus was not offensive by design, nonetheless, many of His words were confrontational to those who held power or way over those who ‘were powerless’ the disadvantaged that often were taken advantage of by ‘retainers’ and ‘elite’. He spoke frankly to them in a way that could be considered offensive. In Matthew 21:33-46 scripture says they ‘perceived’ He was speaking about them and it is pretty clear they were upset by His words.

I think the title of your book is provocative and might entice someone to reconsider some of the things the church might gleefully overemphasize in respect to ‘offense’ but ‘ride loose in the saddle’ so that your message can be given a hearing.

]]> By: brad http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-39832 brad Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:42:46 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-39832 The words we use, and the way we use them, matter a great deal more than most people acknowledge. I fully agree with your point. I just wrote a post on my blog on a <a href="http://www.livingmartyrs.com/wordpress/?p=459" rel="nofollow">similar theme</a>. A while ago, I bristled at one pastor's use of the word guilt. What he meant was conviction. But he made it sound like we're supposed to live in perpetual guilt. Redemption is offered to set us free from guilt -- it's a miracle we're called to investigate and invest in. If you're preaching guilt, I have no idea how you work that in... More recently, people have been bandying around this notion that faith is "dangerous" or "offensive" . That in itself is dangerous and offensive. It's certainly not what faith is. And if our whole faith experience is being coloured with those words, we're in big trouble! We're starting with the expectation that we're telling an offensive story. Which means that we tell it offensively (or pre-emptively defensive), and when people are offended we think we're experiencing persecution for the cause of Christ. It's an amazing disconnect! Faith is mysterious enough without us trying to cloud it in ambiguous, scary terminology. Please, can't we leave that to '80s heavy metal...? :-) The words we use, and the way we use them, matter a great deal more than most people acknowledge. I fully agree with your point. I just wrote a post on my blog on a similar theme.

A while ago, I bristled at one pastor’s use of the word guilt. What he meant was conviction. But he made it sound like we’re supposed to live in perpetual guilt. Redemption is offered to set us free from guilt — it’s a miracle we’re called to investigate and invest in. If you’re preaching guilt, I have no idea how you work that in…

More recently, people have been bandying around this notion that faith is “dangerous” or “offensive” . That in itself is dangerous and offensive. It’s certainly not what faith is. And if our whole faith experience is being coloured with those words, we’re in big trouble! We’re starting with the expectation that we’re telling an offensive story. Which means that we tell it offensively (or pre-emptively defensive), and when people are offended we think we’re experiencing persecution for the cause of Christ. It’s an amazing disconnect!

Faith is mysterious enough without us trying to cloud it in ambiguous, scary terminology. Please, can’t we leave that to ’80s heavy metal…? :-)

]]> By: Chris http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-39533 Chris Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:22:28 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-39533 Is not the Gospel--the Good News, The New Testament, Jesus, Himself--deconstruction? The "event" or "advent" introduced to the "same" causing the "same" to "tremble and reconfigure". Does everyone openly allow themselves the opportunity to "reconfigure" or is it human nature to grip the "same"? I believe that most would grasp their autonomy in a deathgrip--resisting the transformative nature of the Gospel. (This is where the work of the Holy Spirit takes place in regeneration) There have been comments regarding whether or not "offense" is the right word. Perhaps "offense" is only part of the story. What about indignity and apprehension towards the outset of an unknown and endless journey? (I'm thinking of the rich young ruler) I will, however, concede that there are two sides--a "tension" if you will. One of many of Derrida's definitions of deconstruction is "the possibility of the impossibility"--this is encouraging and affirming. This is the tension that I speak of (see the Sermon on the Mount)--a paradox that, yes, is freeing (not in our modern, autonomous understanding--that is a whole different discussion) and also offensive. Caputo's "What would Jesus Deconstruct?" is a helpful source to "un-pack" how Jesus and the Gospel--in the context of deconstruction--could be "offensive". Is not the Gospel–the Good News, The New Testament, Jesus, Himself–deconstruction? The “event” or “advent” introduced to the “same” causing the “same” to “tremble and reconfigure”. Does everyone openly allow themselves the opportunity to “reconfigure” or is it human nature to grip the “same”? I believe that most would grasp their autonomy in a deathgrip–resisting the transformative nature of the Gospel. (This is where the work of the Holy Spirit takes place in regeneration)

There have been comments regarding whether or not “offense” is the right word. Perhaps “offense” is only part of the story. What about indignity and apprehension towards the outset of an unknown and endless journey? (I’m thinking of the rich young ruler) I will, however, concede that there are two sides–a “tension” if you will.

One of many of Derrida’s definitions of deconstruction is “the possibility of the impossibility”–this is encouraging and affirming. This is the tension that I speak of (see the Sermon on the Mount)–a paradox that, yes, is freeing (not in our modern, autonomous understanding–that is a whole different discussion) and also offensive.

Caputo’s “What would Jesus Deconstruct?” is a helpful source to “un-pack” how Jesus and the Gospel–in the context of deconstruction–could be “offensive”.

]]> By: Jeff http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-39300 Jeff Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:26:03 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-39300 I think you are confusing where the "offense" occurs. The message of Jesus Christ on it's own merits is not offensive. How could it be? It speaks of love and peace, of putting others first, and loving our enemies. I think the Good News can become offensive in two ways: 1) how we present it (judgmental, condescending) and 2) exposing truth to entrenched sin (this is what I believe Whitmer was talking about). The first one is wrong on so many levels and is possibly (based on your writings) what you are most concerned about. The second is unavoidable. Ultimately all sin is selfishness, an unwillingness to subvert our will to God's. The Good News calls us to turn away from self, to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord. It forces us to acknowledge we are wrong and in a post-modern society that believes there is no right or wrong, only personal choices, most will find that offensive. I think you are confusing where the “offense” occurs. The message of Jesus Christ on it’s own merits is not offensive. How could it be? It speaks of love and peace, of putting others first, and loving our enemies.

I think the Good News can become offensive in two ways:
1) how we present it (judgmental, condescending)
and
2) exposing truth to entrenched sin (this is what I believe Whitmer was talking about).

The first one is wrong on so many levels and is possibly (based on your writings) what you are most concerned about.

The second is unavoidable. Ultimately all sin is selfishness, an unwillingness to subvert our will to God’s. The Good News calls us to turn away from self, to submit to Jesus Christ as Lord. It forces us to acknowledge we are wrong and in a post-modern society that believes there is no right or wrong, only personal choices, most will find that offensive.

]]> By: Drew http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-39227 Drew Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:34:39 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-39227 I had a professor in college say once that "the gospel is offensive, we don't need to add to it." I think you are right in reminding us how our lives and the way we communicate should reflect the love of Christ, but I think the gospel itself will offend people. I believe the message of the gospel is the offending part because the message says that we cannot achieve righteousness on our own. It strips aways our pride. And at least for myself, I hate being told I can't do something. Whether it be my standing before a holy God or something else. I had a professor in college say once that “the gospel is offensive, we don’t need to add to it.” I think you are right in reminding us how our lives and the way we communicate should reflect the love of Christ, but I think the gospel itself will offend people. I believe the message of the gospel is the offending part because the message says that we cannot achieve righteousness on our own. It strips aways our pride. And at least for myself, I hate being told I can’t do something. Whether it be my standing before a holy God or something else.

]]> By: Rich Kirkpatrick http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-39084 Rich Kirkpatrick Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:58:48 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-39084 I have followed these posts and look forward to your book. My change of heart is that I agree that the gospel is not an offense, with one exception. Religious people are offended by grace in the gospel. Do we treat the outcasts like Jesus did the woman who was about to be stoned? God did not offend that woman caught in adultery nor did He lower his holiness. He simply offered forgiveness--the gospel. The religious spirit in us hates this. We want to control the process, conversation and dispense the gospel like a commodity. I am trying not to be stuck in my own religious cowardice and embrace grace and community which takes courage. It is easy to offend. It is harder to embrace like Jesus did to the adulterer. Only then is "go and sin no more" brought in the picture. I have followed these posts and look forward to your book. My change of heart is that I agree that the gospel is not an offense, with one exception.

Religious people are offended by grace in the gospel. Do we treat the outcasts like Jesus did the woman who was about to be stoned? God did not offend that woman caught in adultery nor did He lower his holiness. He simply offered forgiveness–the gospel. The religious spirit in us hates this. We want to control the process, conversation and dispense the gospel like a commodity.

I am trying not to be stuck in my own religious cowardice and embrace grace and community which takes courage. It is easy to offend. It is harder to embrace like Jesus did to the adulterer. Only then is “go and sin no more” brought in the picture.

]]> By: Danny http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-38964 Danny Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:14:33 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-38964 I think you should begin with people. All of these models of "offense" or "pure gospel" or whatever is all good and well, but the reality is that we start with people. Different people will be in different places. For those who are prideful, we must them 'the fall.' For those who are rich, they must learn to give to the poor. What we are really teaching is grace, but how that grace plays out depends on the person. I think you should begin with people.

All of these models of “offense” or “pure gospel” or whatever is all good and well, but the reality is that we start with people. Different people will be in different places. For those who are prideful, we must them ‘the fall.’ For those who are rich, they must learn to give to the poor. What we are really teaching is grace, but how that grace plays out depends on the person.

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-38858 Jeremy Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:57:53 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-38858 I like what you're saying here Danny. As I told another friend of mine: when we use this type of language we automatically create an unhealthy condition and mindset for being Christ in the world. I am all for the prophetic witness you speak of Danny, and that Jesus modeled. But should "offensive" be the starting place for that witness? I just think that beginning with that mindset conditions Christians right off the bat for unhealthy incarnational practice. -jeremy I like what you’re saying here Danny. As I told another friend of mine: when we use this type of language we automatically create an unhealthy condition and mindset for being Christ in the world. I am all for the prophetic witness you speak of Danny, and that Jesus modeled. But should “offensive” be the starting place for that witness? I just think that beginning with that mindset conditions Christians right off the bat for unhealthy incarnational practice.

-jeremy

]]> By: Danny http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-38842 Danny Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:39:30 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-38842 Perhaps a better way to put this would be to say that Jesus spoke prophetically into his world. He compared those who were dirty on the inside to cups dirty on the inside. Jesus called people "what they are" and "what we are" (present) is not what "we should be" (future). We are called to be people who follow Christ, and we must constantly be reminded how difficult and taxing such a walk can sometimes be. When people wanted to follow Jesus, he compare it to building a huge house, you shouldn't start if you can't finish. There are plenty of ways to simply read the Bible and let the text speak prophetically into the lives of those who are hearing it. There is not much we need to "add" to it to make it speak prophetically and powerfully. Some people will be offended and offset by the demands of prophetic truth. Perhaps a better way to put this would be to say that Jesus spoke prophetically into his world. He compared those who were dirty on the inside to cups dirty on the inside. Jesus called people “what they are” and “what we are” (present) is not what “we should be” (future). We are called to be people who follow Christ, and we must constantly be reminded how difficult and taxing such a walk can sometimes be.

When people wanted to follow Jesus, he compare it to building a huge house, you shouldn’t start if you can’t finish. There are plenty of ways to simply read the Bible and let the text speak prophetically into the lives of those who are hearing it. There is not much we need to “add” to it to make it speak prophetically and powerfully. Some people will be offended and offset by the demands of prophetic truth.

]]> By: Jeremy http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response/comment-page-1#comment-38841 Jeremy Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:21:12 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/offending-your-base%e2%80%93a-response#comment-38841 hmmmm...yeah I can see that. maybe I should see a shrink to 'get' why I get so offended by the use of the word... ahh well...thanks for your truthie comment :) -jeremy hmmmm…yeah I can see that. maybe I should see a shrink to ‘get’ why I get so offended by the use of the word…

ahh well…thanks for your truthie comment :)
-jeremy

]]>