Comments for novus•lumen http://www.novuslumen.net I write within the tension of spirituality and culture, politics and theology, existing and emerging forms of church, the Kingdom of God and Empire America, modern and postmodern thought, & the gritty drama that is my pilgrim story. Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:03:39 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 Comment on “I love you God. Can you help me make better choices?” by Greg Gorham http://www.novuslumen.net/i-love-you-god-can-you-help-me-make-better-choices/comment-page-1#comment-77661 Greg Gorham Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:03:39 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/i-love-you-god-can-you-help-me-make-better-choices#comment-77661 I hope you're enjoying the vacation!! I hope you're enjoying the vacation!!

]]> Comment on Archbishop Rowan Williams on the Uniqueness and Finality of Christ by Greg Gorham http://www.novuslumen.net/archbishop-rowan-williams-on-the-uniqueness-and-finality-of-christ/comment-page-1#comment-77633 Greg Gorham Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:25:41 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/?p=699#comment-77633 I guess I still have no idea how I contradicted that. And I'm not sure how swapping Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes is going to help (but for the record, "While we distinguish between pious and godless, good and evil, noble and base, God loves real people without distinction." Bonhoeffer - Ethics). I think the point remains, to say that God's grace is wholly inoperable outside of faith in Jesus is a dubious proposition, not just because of Bonhoeffer, but all the other examples I cited, what I would consider to be the whole narrative flow of Scripture, and plenty more examples and important theologians besides. I guess I still have no idea how I contradicted that. And I'm not sure how swapping Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes is going to help (but for the record, "While we distinguish between pious and godless, good and evil, noble and base, God loves real people without distinction." Bonhoeffer – Ethics). I think the point remains, to say that God's grace is wholly inoperable outside of faith in Jesus is a dubious proposition, not just because of Bonhoeffer, but all the other examples I cited, what I would consider to be the whole narrative flow of Scripture, and plenty more examples and important theologians besides.

]]> Comment on “I love you God. Can you help me make better choices?” by Heidi http://www.novuslumen.net/i-love-you-god-can-you-help-me-make-better-choices/comment-page-1#comment-77603 Heidi Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:58:21 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/i-love-you-god-can-you-help-me-make-better-choices#comment-77603 Jeremy, Put that in a frame & put it somewhere that you see it first, before you speak to anyone! That is one of the sweetest things I've seen. How truly precious. Jeremy,
Put that in a frame & put it somewhere that you see it first, before you speak to anyone! That is one of the sweetest things I've seen. How truly precious.

]]> Comment on In What Do You Place Your Faith, Mrs. Clinton? by Randy Buist http://www.novuslumen.net/in-what-do-you-place-your-faith-mrs-clinton/comment-page-1#comment-77569 Randy Buist Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:52:19 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/in-what-do-you-place-your-faith-mrs-clinton#comment-77569 I'm trying to write a thoughtful and helpful response to this post; it's just not working. I want to push back a bit, but I also want to be generous. I believe the biblical text reminds us that our faith will be known by the way we treat and judge people. So, the tax collectors, the prostitutes, the thief of the cross, the rich young ruler, all held aspects of the biblical text incorrectly. Yet, Jesus found ways to be generous to those people. He didn't applaud their incorrect beliefs, but neither did he condemn them for their incorrect beliefs. I content that when we begin to point fingers as our daily means of faith and witness, we fail to live into the mission of God with his people. When our theology dictates that we need to determine who is in and out before God, we fail to come alongside Jesus Christ. When prostitutes, bisexuals, and homosexuals are not welcome in the church of Jesus Christ, when people struggling with the exclusivity of Jesus Christ while still worshiping him are questioned for their faith, the the table becomes very small. The reason people such as Pagitt, Jones, McLaren, and I believe we need a different direction for the church, or at least the evangelical church, is because the biblical text demands that we show the same kind of grace to people that Christ did to us. From my biblical perspective, whenever we fail to show grace to people, we fail the gospel. Whenever we condemn people for their beliefs, we close doors and windows that would have otherwise allowed us to speak into their lives. I'm trying to write a thoughtful and helpful response to this post; it's just not working. I want to push back a bit, but I also want to be generous. I believe the biblical text reminds us that our faith will be known by the way we treat and judge people.

So, the tax collectors, the prostitutes, the thief of the cross, the rich young ruler, all held aspects of the biblical text incorrectly. Yet, Jesus found ways to be generous to those people. He didn't applaud their incorrect beliefs, but neither did he condemn them for their incorrect beliefs.

I content that when we begin to point fingers as our daily means of faith and witness, we fail to live into the mission of God with his people. When our theology dictates that we need to determine who is in and out before God, we fail to come alongside Jesus Christ.

When prostitutes, bisexuals, and homosexuals are not welcome in the church of Jesus Christ, when people struggling with the exclusivity of Jesus Christ while still worshiping him are questioned for their faith, the the table becomes very small.

The reason people such as Pagitt, Jones, McLaren, and I believe we need a different direction for the church, or at least the evangelical church, is because the biblical text demands that we show the same kind of grace to people that Christ did to us.

From my biblical perspective, whenever we fail to show grace to people, we fail the gospel. Whenever we condemn people for their beliefs, we close doors and windows that would have otherwise allowed us to speak into their lives.

]]> Comment on Archbishop Rowan Williams on the Uniqueness and Finality of Christ by Heidi http://www.novuslumen.net/archbishop-rowan-williams-on-the-uniqueness-and-finality-of-christ/comment-page-1#comment-77565 Heidi Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:44:52 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/?p=699#comment-77565 "Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness w/o repentance, baptism w/o church discipline, Communion w/o confession. Cheap grace, is grace w/o discipleship, grace without the Cross, grace without Jesus Christ, Living and Incarnate." Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship" "Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness w/o repentance, baptism w/o church discipline, Communion w/o confession.
Cheap grace, is grace w/o discipleship, grace without the Cross, grace without Jesus Christ, Living and Incarnate."
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship"

]]> Comment on Archbishop Rowan Williams on the Uniqueness and Finality of Christ by Greg Gorham http://www.novuslumen.net/archbishop-rowan-williams-on-the-uniqueness-and-finality-of-christ/comment-page-1#comment-77558 Greg Gorham Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:20:44 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/?p=699#comment-77558 I got to listen to it 2 nights ago at work - it was excellent! Like you I didn't find much to disagree with - I thought it started out a little slow but got more and more engrossing as it went on! I'm hoping to listen to it again sometime, but at home, so I can listen straight through without interruptions. I got to listen to it 2 nights ago at work – it was excellent! Like you I didn't find much to disagree with – I thought it started out a little slow but got more and more engrossing as it went on! I'm hoping to listen to it again sometime, but at home, so I can listen straight through without interruptions.

]]> Comment on Archbishop Rowan Williams on the Uniqueness and Finality of Christ by Greg Gorham http://www.novuslumen.net/archbishop-rowan-williams-on-the-uniqueness-and-finality-of-christ/comment-page-1#comment-77557 Greg Gorham Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:18:07 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/?p=699#comment-77557 So what precisely did I get wrong? I don't deny that he spoke out quite strongly against "cheap grace". But as I understand it, his Christology entailed ending the division of the world into sacred and secular, and thus all of reality under his control, and that Christ was the one who was "pro me", and always came toward humanity. He insisted that Christ was to be found in the other, in relationship, in community, and that because of the incarnation, humanity and God were no longer seperated. Since Christ is for me, and for the other, he stands between me and the other, so as a Christian I can only see the other through the lens of Christ. That's a far cry from saying God's activity and work and grace are wholly inoperable in the world apart from faith in Jesus. So what precisely did I get wrong? I don't deny that he spoke out quite strongly against "cheap grace". But as I understand it, his Christology entailed ending the division of the world into sacred and secular, and thus all of reality under his control, and that Christ was the one who was "pro me", and always came toward humanity. He insisted that Christ was to be found in the other, in relationship, in community, and that because of the incarnation, humanity and God were no longer seperated. Since Christ is for me, and for the other, he stands between me and the other, so as a Christian I can only see the other through the lens of Christ. That's a far cry from saying God's activity and work and grace are wholly inoperable in the world apart from faith in Jesus.

]]> Comment on Archbishop Rowan Williams on the Uniqueness and Finality of Christ by Heidi http://www.novuslumen.net/archbishop-rowan-williams-on-the-uniqueness-and-finality-of-christ/comment-page-1#comment-77553 Heidi Thu, 11 Mar 2010 01:08:36 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/?p=699#comment-77553 My German, is lacking. Speak it, but read or write, takes a bit. In Bonhoeffer's englisch version, "The Cost of Discipleship", he mentions, "cheap Grace" (preiswerte gnade, von Christus). This I think, is what Jeremy was getting at, in this article. The current sitting Archbishop of C, Samir, and the like, miss the point. Christ offers His Grace, bought at the greatest of price, these men, offer a cheap alternative. Christ, Messiah Yeshua, is anything but, a "cheap" proxy. My German, is lacking. Speak it, but read or write, takes a bit. In Bonhoeffer's englisch version, "The Cost of Discipleship", he mentions, "cheap Grace" (preiswerte gnade, von Christus). This I think, is what Jeremy was getting at, in this article. The current sitting Archbishop of C, Samir, and the like, miss the point. Christ offers His Grace, bought at the greatest of price, these men, offer a cheap alternative. Christ, Messiah Yeshua, is anything but, a "cheap" proxy.

]]> Comment on Archbishop Rowan Williams on the Uniqueness and Finality of Christ by Heidi http://www.novuslumen.net/archbishop-rowan-williams-on-the-uniqueness-and-finality-of-christ/comment-page-1#comment-77550 Heidi Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:44:14 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/?p=699#comment-77550 Greg, Your use of the quote from Bonhoeffer is taken out of context. Not only that, but also the concept. Bonhoeffer was a "confessional" Lutheran. Bonhoeffer, believed in the entirely human AND entirely Divine. In order to take Bonhoeffer in context, his true statement, must be weighed with the Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord) and the Solas. Sola Christo, Sola Gracia, Sole Fide, and not last nor least, Sola Scriptura. You do a great injustice, to a great man, when you choose to use Bonhoeffer that way. Greg,
Your use of the quote from Bonhoeffer is taken out of context. Not only that, but also the concept. Bonhoeffer was a "confessional" Lutheran. Bonhoeffer, believed in the entirely human AND entirely Divine. In order to take Bonhoeffer in context, his true statement, must be weighed with the Lutheran Confessions (Book of Concord) and the Solas. Sola Christo, Sola Gracia, Sole Fide, and not last nor least, Sola Scriptura.
You do a great injustice, to a great man, when you choose to use Bonhoeffer that way.

]]> Comment on The “New Kind of Christianity” of Brian McLaren: A Theological Assessment, The Narrative Question 1 by Greg Gorham http://www.novuslumen.net/the-new-kind-of-christianity-of-brian-mclaren-a-theological-assessment-the-narrative-question-1/comment-page-1#comment-77538 Greg Gorham Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:05:25 +0000 http://www.novuslumen.net/the-new-kind-of-christianity-of-brian-mclaren-a-theological-assessment-the-narrative-question-1#comment-77538 Brian actually responded to this very criticism here: <a href="http://emergingpensees.blogspot.com/2010/03/brian-mclaren-clarifies-some-questions_08.html#comments" rel="nofollow">http://emergingpensees.blogspot.com/2010/03/brian...</a> Brian actually responded to this very criticism here: http://emergingpensees.blogspot.com/2010/03/brian...

]]>